The CETA Arts Revolution Part 2: What Can Today's Activist Artists Learn From It?

Speaker A: 00:00:02

rgotten jobs program from the: 1970

From the center for the Study of Art and Community, this is Change the Story, Change the World, a chronicle of art and community transformation where activists, artists and cultural organizers share the skills and strategies they need to thrive as agents of social change. My name is Bill Cleveland.

In this continuation of our two part series on the CENA Legacy Project, Virginia Maksimowitz and Blaise Tobia explore how artists thrived not just creatively, but civically through a federally funded experiment in public service.

ation of how back in the late: 1970

We'll also discover essential survival tools for artists working in communities, including things that they absolutely never teach you in art school.

And we'll hear unforgettable stories of artistic problem solving, relationship building, and the enduring power and impact of humility, thoughtful communication, and joy in creative service.

n SETA as artists back in the: 1970

But now, these many years later, you've become, as you say, serendipitous art historians with a particular focus which is learning about a much broader spread of this accidental federal investment called ceta.

So what is the legacy that rises up from this little moment in American history that most people have forgotten and may be particularly relevant to where we are now?

Speaker B: 00:02:21

I hope a good part of the legacy is, in a way, not exactly a blueprint, but at least a guide for the future. And in fact, Ted Berger in New York in one article he wrote, said, we all just keep reinventing the wheel. We don't have to do that.

Speaker A: 00:02:42

All right, I should say here that Ted Berger is a longtime artist, advocate and leader who helped lead New York's initial CEDAR program.

Speaker B: 00:02:55

And the thing is, we have actually seen some stuff happen and it's not with government funding, but Creatives Rebuild New York that Mellon funded project over the pandemic that employed artists?

Early on, the director, Sarah Calderon, asked to consult with us because she had heard about cita, but she's a lot younger than us, so she needed to learn, and Blaise and I of course talked her ear off.

But a lot of what we talked about was the way CITA was structured, or at least our project was structured, and that it's important to have good administration, that you can't just throw money at artists. And CRNY wound up modeling half of their program on Cedar.

The other half, they modeled it on guaranteed income, and they're doing research to see how they both pan out, because the Cedar one had community involvement, the guaranteed income didn't. So in that sense, I hope it has, like a legacy reaching into the future.

hrough the roof, It'll be the: 1970

Speaker C: 00:04:13

But, Bill, I think we can also say Virginia and I spend a lot of time traveling and we spend a lot of time in Europe, where there has tended to be a more enlightened, shall we say, attitude about the interaction of the government and the arts to the point of where in Germany or Britain, artists can tap government money much more easily than they can here. And the programs are more stable and durable and supported by various things, like in England by the sports lottery, for example.

But for us, this little bit of CETA arts, over eight years in this country's history, this was a little opportunity to experience a different kind of model for how the government and the arts community could interact, and one that required more responsibility on the part of artists than just getting grants, and one that required more, I'd say, even handedness in terms of awarding the positions than typically might happen with granting.

Speaker B: 00:05:18

Well, I think something else that lasts. Lipsita. I think the arts sector needs to learn how to look for money that wasn't originally designed for them.

Unlike the wpa, CETA didn't have a federal art project. John Kreidler and Ruth Asawa figured out that, hey, artists of workers, too. Let's see if we can tap this money.

Speaker A: 00:05:44

And this is a reference to John Kreidler, who came back to San Francisco after a Stint with the U.S. office of Management and Budget working on the CETA legislation, who joined forces with the renowned artist and educator Ruth Asawa and.

at the Alvarado ART center in: 1974

Speaker B: 00:06:11

Right. And assuming there is in the future any government funding for anything anymore, I think artists have to be ready to look.

Is there something in this legislation that we can contribute to? Yes, and that's one of the things of not reinventing. It doesn't always have to be funding for the arts. It can be funding for something else.

Speaker A: 00:06:34

Yes.

One of the things I think that is unique about ceta, very different from the wpa, is that in many venues, in many jurisdictions, the money came online in a fairly serendipitous way. The process was actually quite quick, comparatively, in terms of federal money, because it was, we want to put people to work.

And some of the artists that were involved in CETA actually came in through the back door, so to speak. My first CETA job was as a youth counselor, not as an artist.

And that got me into understanding and learning how to work the Federal Register and the regs and work with the Department of Labor from the back end. Part five, the serendipitous Experiment.

One of the things that was interesting is that because SITA had never imagined that artists were actually going to be involved, there were very few constraints on artist job descriptions. And that, to me, was one of the most exciting, explosive experiments, which was based on the San Francisco model.

Various PRIME sponsors joined with local arts organizations and said, we want you to go to this senior center, learn about what's going on there, and then figure out how you can contribute in collaboration with the people who are there.

Make sure that their priorities and their definitions of success define what you're up to, because you're there in service to what they're trying to accomplish. And therein lies an amazing, and I think, in some ways, very unforeseen experimental interface.

And so you just had thousands and thousands of experiments where artists were told, well, this is the county jail, and this is what we do. And if you can figure out how you can contribute to what we're up to here, be my guest.

A lot of them were in those circumstances and they responded amazingly well given that there was no big training program available for them.

Speaker C: 00:08:55

I think, Bill, that's very interesting. And our experience with artists has generally been most artists who work in the real world are very great problem solvers. They're adaptable.

Speaker A: 00:09:09

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Speaker C: 00:09:10

And they can do the kind of.

Speaker A: 00:09:11

Thing you're talking about, roll up their sleeves and go, okay, well, here's some questions.

Speaker C: 00:09:17

Another thing about art which confounds many students is there are no right answers. It is literally the opposite of your math quiz. And what you're saying is you go in first and you discover what the question is.

Speaker A: 00:09:31

Yep, that's exactly right.

Speaker C: 00:09:33

You attempt to answer it. Right?

Speaker A: 00:09:34

Yeah. So here's a question for you. One of the skill sets that doesn't come with art school and only comes with rolling up Your sleeves.

And getting into these new nooks and crannies of places is how to do that. How to be in a place and not get thrown out immediately because you're in the way.

And how do you make space for learning enough so that you can make yourself useful? What is that skill set? How do you become a liaison between your skill set and a community?

Could you describe how that was for you and what you would share with someone who's starting out down that path?

Speaker B: 00:10:19

Well, something that I could share from my CETA days.

Now, this is a case where I had a community assignment with really nice people, but I was trying to please so much that I actually didn't know how to navigate my saying no with their expectations. So what had happened was it was a community center where they wanted a ceramic mural. And I did go in and say, this is what I need.

You can buy this kind of clay. I need a room where we can work, and I can leave the tiles to dry without them being disturbed. And I need a kiln. Right.

And they said, oh, well, no problem. Here's our kiln, and we'll give you this room. So they buy the right clay. I work with the students for several weeks.

We get all these really nice tiles done. They're all laid out in this room. I come back the next week, and the tiles aren't there.

Oh, we had to use the room, and we moved the tiles onto these shelves, but they had them on the shelf with the edges over, and they all dried like this.

Speaker A: 00:11:37

They had a right angle on there. Yes.

Speaker B: 00:11:39

Right. Now I said, all right, what we'll do is we'll change it, and we're going to make it into a mosaic.

So I'm going to break these tiles, we'll fire them, and then we're going to piece them together in interesting ways. So now it's time to fire. Yeah, they had a kiln, but it didn't work.

Speaker A: 00:11:54

Of course not.

Speaker B: 00:11:56

So they said, all right. We arranged to use the kiln, kiln of the school down the block. And I said, okay. So the day comes, and I say, okay, how are we getting it over there?

Oh, we have to bring them over in shopping carts. Well, New York City streets are bumpy. Broken sidewalks, so the tiles broke even more. But anyway, we fire them.

And I say, okay, now we're going to glaze them and we'll do another firing. Oh, no, the school's only allowing us to use the kiln once. But again, I acquiesced.

Again, I did research, and I Found the ceramic paint, and we painted it, and it didn't look bad. All right. But by then, my assignment had ended, and I was scheduled for another assignment.

So I said, look, when you finally order the mastic to put it up on the wall, I'll come back on my own time because it's got to go up a certain way.

Well, about a month later, I get a phone call from my supervisor at the cultural council foundation and said, the community center called and said, you, mosaic fell off the wall. And I said, what? It's not on the wall. They put it out themselves. They didn't know what they were doing. All right. That was my.

Perhaps my best learning experience on. Because I was a young artist, I was only in my 20s, and it was hard for me to say, no, I can't. This is the line.

And to younger artists trying to navigate this, I say, you're going to make mistakes. It's not all going to be your fault. There'll be some failures, but learn from it. It's not easy.

Speaker A: 00:13:48

Yeah.

And one of the things that I had to learn a lot, especially both working in sita, but also in the prisons, is to really pay respect to the fact that the people who are your hosts have no idea what you're up to. They might have the idea of a mural in their head.

I remember there was a dancer choreographer working for me, and the sponsor said, well, you're teaching dance, and so in a week, we're going to have a dance recital.

And so the dancer had to sit down with the sponsor and very diplomatically share the reality of a dance class and the time and logistics involved in learning and choreography and rehearsal and performance.

As a professional dance educator talking respectfully to another educational professional, as you can imagine, this was hard for the dancer and a completely new and difficult experience for the sponsor, who thought of dance as a recessed activity and no clue at all about the rigor involved. And that's the moment where you go, wow, actually, I should have done orientation up front.

The analogy I draw is there are some times where a plumber just disappears into your bathroom and then comes out and says, it's all fixed. Right? But other times, they have to go, I have some news for you. I'm going to be using all my skills in your house.

We're going to take some of the wall out, we're going to take some of your tile out, replacing your fixtures, et cetera, et cetera. It's going to take this. It's going to be this messy. It's going to be this expensive. And there will be surprises along the way.

And then after this orientation, you're their partner. And then the question at the end of it, is this worth it to you? Right.

And my assumption is that every time you move further down the road in your assignments, that your reconnaissance and your orientation for the people you were working with became more knowledgeable and self protective. Is that true?

Speaker B: 00:16:16

I think I also learned, Bill, and this kind of relates to years later, being friends with everybody in facilities at Franklin and Marshall.

Speaker A: 00:16:25

Yeah.

Speaker B: 00:16:25

To find out who are the people who really understand what's going on. Because the upper administrators don't necessarily know.

They have good intentions, but as you're saying, they don't necessarily know how things are made.

And even while I was on Seta, that place where Cool Tie Jones did his ceramics, they had a wonderful janitor there who I made friends with, who was the one who watched the kiln firings for me.

Speaker A: 00:16:54

There you go.

Speaker B: 00:16:55

And I wrote it all down for him and he said, got it. But that happened later in my cedar stuff. So I did learn from the one bad assignment.

Speaker C: 00:17:10

Coming back to the Some of the capabilities or the toolkit or whatever you're talking about that artists may have or may need to develop.

Speaker A: 00:17:18

Yeah.

Speaker C: 00:17:18

I think that artists develop their abilities, their skills. They learn when they need to.

They develop the toolkit that they need to, because they look at the world in a somewhat different way and they're inspired and also maybe fearless, and sometimes mistakenly fearless, but nonetheless a kind of fearless that causes them to engage and to learn and to feedback that helps them improve. And eventually they do become the people who are able to do the kind of thing that you're talking about.

Speaker A: 00:17:53

Yeah. And the other thing, Blaise, is that you talked about the process you went through to qualify to become a part of the program.

I'm sure the similar kinds of things occur when you apply for a job at a university.

And one of the things I think happens, and rightfully, is that there are artists who are brilliant who should never step foot in a senior center because they don't have the patience or the attention span to deal with the relationship intensive nature of the work. There are some artists who literally do want to lock themselves in the studio and never see another person.

Speaker C: 00:18:32

Well, exactly. And when it worked out, that was the work that our very capable administrators did, who were all artists themselves.

Speaker A: 00:18:40

Yeah.

Speaker C: 00:18:40

And they got better at it, too, as the project proceeded.

They learned who was going to be a disaster in a certain assignment and picked other people and some of our on the Face of it, stars were some of the most problematic. This is a lesson that we learned through time, that people who exhibit diva behavior are not always the most reliable.

Speaker A: 00:19:03

No, that's true.

Speaker C: 00:19:04

And we learn that when we interview people for jobs in our faculties as well.

Speaker A: 00:19:12

Part 6 Lessons for the 21st Century Activist artists so I'm going to put you on the spot, each of you, if one of your students, okay.

Sits across the table and says, well, I've been hearing about your career, and it's really interesting to me, and particularly this whole idea of mucking around in communities and being challenged with all these things. Tell me three things that I would need to keep in mind to keep out of trouble and succeed in those circumstances.

Speaker B: 00:19:48

Well, the first thing I would say is, and this comes from what I learned in ceta, that art is not a commodity, it's a service. All right?

And for students that think they're going to change the world through their art, it can really only happen in community if change happens at all. Because so many of my students are concerned about the art market. And I would say, don't be so concerned about it.

Don't be concerned about branding, all right? I'm not against the commercial art system. I would say, hey, if you have some commercial success, take the money, okay?

But be wary of where it might lead you, all right? Essentially, don't let them take your soul and don't let the market isolate you.

I think right now, in so many art programs, there is such a stress on the market and branding, and that's what I would say.

Speaker A: 00:20:54

Number two.

Speaker B: 00:20:56

Well, I would have them read certain books. Top on my list is Lewis Hyde's the Gift. That is my art bible.

Because what I would tell them is, okay, you've got the gift economy and the market economy. You've got to find your place along the line between gift and market where you're comfortable. All right?

So going back to number one, don't be too concerned about the art market. But number two, find out where you are between gift and market.

Speaker A: 00:21:36

Yeah.

Speaker B: 00:21:37

Third one is don't worry, be happy.

Speaker A: 00:21:42

There you go. Joy. Joy. Absolutely, yes. A through line these days from everybody I'm talking to Blaze. You got three for me?

Speaker C: 00:21:55

Well, Bill, one is picking up from what you were saying about the importance of basic communication. The earlier in the process, the better. Whatever it is you're going to do, you're going to have a client, you're going to have whatever.

Really put a certain amount of time and effort into making sure you Understand each other before proceeding. I really like that idea, and it's one that I've only very slowly incorporated into my own way of being in the world.

Number two is you will have responsibility as an artist.

Whether you are just a painting maker, an object maker, or whether you are a teacher or whether you are somebody working in a community setting, you will have responsibility.

In one case, you will have responsibility to your audience in another case, you have responsibility to the people you engage with or you collaborate with. And you can't just do work that serves you and not others. And you can't just make assumptions about how people will perceive what you're doing.

And that, of course, comes back to communication.

Speaker A: 00:23:04

Yep, yep.

Speaker C: 00:23:05

Right. And I think the third one is to be patient. Really. You're going to do your best work 30 years from now.

So many people want to do their best work now, next few days, and it's just not going to happen. There is a saying in the fine art photography world. Your first 10,000 photographs, you might as well just throw out.

Speaker A: 00:23:24

Did you?

Speaker C: 00:23:27

I got them, but I don't bring them out a whole lot.

Speaker A: 00:23:31

Yeah. So you mentioned a book. I'm going to ask each of you just to pick one.

Either a book or other kind of creative stimuli that you would recommend to our audience that is related to our conversation.

Speaker C: 00:23:47

Well, I think the creative stimulus and satisfaction that I get and Virginia gets as well from the community that has come together around our work and see the legacy, the people like you. But John Kreidler in his mid-80s, who helped found the whole thing, and George Cook in Washington, D.C.

in his mid-80s, who helped form this whole thing. Right.

People like Molly Garfinkel at City Lore Gallery and Jody Weinberg at Cuchi Fritos Gallery, who are picking up the ball and running with it in a way that we are not capable of doing, because they really are art historians and.

Speaker B: 00:24:23

They'Re a lot younger.

Speaker C: 00:24:24

Or Mary Okin with Living New Deal, who has given us a lot of support. Jenny and I preach community and the importance of community at every level and in every way for human beings. Because we are community beings.

And it just. It's a reality, this little community that has come about around. See, the legacy gives us a lot of sustenance.

Speaker A: 00:24:45

Beautiful. So, Virginia, do you have some work of art or a stimulus that you would recommend to our audience?

Speaker B: 00:24:57

Less than a stimulus. I might recommend a combination of yoga and Zumba. Not at the same time. Two of the things that keep me sane in our current time.

Twice a week I do zoom yoga, and on Saturdays, I do Zumba.

Speaker A: 00:25:20

Well, actually, I've tried to help artists navigate the world of community relationships for a long time. And one of the things that goes by the wayside, even when you scream it from the mountaintops, is take care of yourself.

That particularly if you're in your studio and you're ruining yourself, you're not going to get any really wonderful art and you will pay the price, but nobody else does unless your loved ones do.

But when you're working with community, the responsibility, the accountability that you have is you are bringing a powerful force into people's lives, the creative process. And the reality of it is that probably the greatest threat to people who want to succeed in these community creative relationships is burnout.

And at least in my experience, having worked in prison systems and in mental health systems and at the community level, it can be pretty extreme. There are people in this work that are really committed, and they commit to the point where they literally eat themselves alive.

And that doesn't do them any good, but it certainly does help the people that they intended to serve.

And actually, it's a pretty bad model if you're teaching kids, is that, yeah, you want to work hard and you want to show up, you want to be patient, but you also want to take care of yourself.

Speaker B: 00:26:50

Right. And it's unfortunate that we still have models of the suffering artists, Basquiat dying so young.

Speaker A: 00:26:58

Just screw that. It's not true.

There are plenty of artists who do take care of themselves and do quite well and find love in their lives and don't destroy themselves from substance abuse.

Speaker C: 00:27:11

But, Bill, I think another thing is take a lesson from nature which gives itself a rest.

Speaker A: 00:27:17

Yes, it does.

Speaker C: 00:27:18

Even to the point of seeming to die.

Speaker A: 00:27:20

Yes.

Speaker C: 00:27:20

Right. And then comes back with a lot of energy. Right, Absolutely.

Speaker A: 00:27:24

That is right.

Speaker C: 00:27:25

You gotta do that, you gotta withdraw, you gotta regroup, you gotta regain energy, and then you can come back even stronger.

Speaker A: 00:27:31

Yep. And we're not exempt from the laws of nature. And if we're smart, inspired by them.

Speaker B: 00:27:38

One, one last thing. This isn't really advice you can give somebody because it just depends on how your life goes.

But in Blaze, in my case, we were so fortunate that we met each other. We kid about this. We met when we were young and stupid. We were just. We were undergraduates that we met.

We hit it off, and here we are over, what now, 53 years later? And I think what was good for us both, being artists, we understand each other. So we do, kid, gee, let's get divorced.

And each marry a lawyer, so we have some money.

But, you know, the thing is, with the SITA stuff, we're doing different things with the Legacy Project based on our personalities, since I'm the one who likes to get all of these things into the archive and whatever. But I'm not sure I would have.

Speaker A: 00:28:33

The fortitude to keep doing it without the partnership. Yes, absolutely. It's a partnership. And as Blaise said earlier, humans are social. Humanity is not a solo act by any means. It's community act.

Absolutely. Well, let me tell you, you guys are treasures. And I want to thank you for your continuing persistence with the SETA Legacy Project.

It's super important, and I think a lot of students think of history as something that's dusty and that ain't true, because every single thing that we're staring in the face now that everybody is awestruck and shocked is not new. And there are lessons about human nature and about community and politics and world history that are right there available for us if we care.

And that's what education is about. And also blessings to both of you for your commitment to your students.

If there's anything that makes you have a long, productive life, it's knowing that some little tidbit of your inspiration or wisdom or mistake lives in someone else who's going to take it and pass it on. So thank you.

Speaker C: 00:29:53

That is our legacy.

Speaker A: 00:29:54

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: 00:29:55

As well as Cedar.

Speaker A: 00:29:56

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B: 00:29:58

All our artwork's going in the town.

Speaker A: 00:30:00

No, it's going to a museum. Yeah, the seat of museum. All right.

Speaker B: 00:30:06

So anyway, we have to go mount our posters for the demons.

Speaker A: 00:30:10

Oh, the demonstration tomorrow. Yes. All right. All right. Okay, thank you. All right. Bye. Bye.

Speaker C: 00:30:16

I hope to see you again, Bill.

Speaker A: 00:30:17

Absolutely. Bye. Bye. Well, that was a treat that I think came with a few lessons, at least for me. The first being that the SETA Legacy may be meeting its moment.

Despite being a nearly forgotten program, I think that simple model of employing artists as public service worker still resonates, particularly today at a time when common ground and imagination are sorely needed. Another is that art can be both a service and a commodity.

Art driven community building and problem solving and art as a material impetus for inspiration and learning are not mutually exclusive. It may be that successful artists in the future will need to learn how to navigate both creative practice and public service.

Finally, whether it's fixing a broken drawer with a Swiss army knife or transforming a failed M mural into a mosaic, the Stories from Sea to Artists, I think, remind us that resilience, creativity and building genuine relationships are at the heart of community driven art. So thanks to all of you for tuning in. I hope this seat of history resonated for you as well.

Change the Story, Change the World is a production of the center for the Study of Art and Community. Our theme and soundscape spring forth from the head, heart and hands of the maestro Judy Munson.

Our text editing is by Andre Nebbe, our effects come from freesound.org and our inspiration comes from the ever present spirit of OOP235. So until next time, stay well, do good, and spread the good word. And once again, please know that this episode has been 100% human.

And finally, that in a few weeks, the show that we've been referring to as Change the Story, Change the World for the past three years will be called Art is Change.