Why Arts Activism & Cultural Organizing are a Pro Democracy Imperative

Bill Cleveland: 00:00:01

Hey there. It's Change the Story, Change the World's art and social change. Weather report Time and this week's question is fairly simple.

How can the transformative power of art and culture serve as the connective tissue in movements for democracy, justice and deep societal change?

From the center for the Study of Art and Community, this is Change the Story, Change the World, a chronicle of art and social change where activist artists and cultural organizers share the skills and strategies they need to thrive as creative community leaders.

My name is Bill Cleveland, so I'll begin with an assertion in the world we're all waking up to every day, a world that is divided by systemic silos building genuine arts, animated cross sector collaboration is more than a goal, it's a necessity.

This episode dives into how activist artists and cultural organizers can forge meaningful connections with their community social change partners and why our current systems often fail to support that.

In it, we'll hear from international peace builder and organizer Julia Roig about the Horizon Project and how it's redefining movement building through authentic relationship weaving. We'll learn why sharing stories and cultural engagement are crucial in combating authoritarianism and fostering a thriving democracy.

And through Julia's stories, we'll also gain an understanding of how creativity and the arts are not just tools, but essential strategies for social transformation and collective sense making. Part 1 Horizons, silos and Spiders Julia Roig, welcome to the show.

So tell me about the Horizons Project, which I believe started just a few years ago.

Julia Roig: 00:02:14

Right, yeah. Well, again, thank you, Bill, for the opportunity to have the conversation.

And you know, the Horizons Project might be a new brand, but the idea has been around for a long time. So the origin story of the Horizons Project is just that, that it was a project within an organization that I used to run.

o focus on domestic issues in: 2021

And that was such a weird time period, so close after the pandemic.

And so it was interesting to try and organize something new with a new audience while we were all still on lockdown and figuring out what was what and who was who and how to do what we wanted to do differently. And we quickly realized that Horizons should be spun off as a separate entity and it shouldn't live with an international organization.

Lots of organizations have done that. Quite successful, but.

So we spun off in: 2022

So Horizons is fiscally sponsored and that might be insider baseball for those of us who are in the civil society sector, but it's actually quite meaningful with regards to the structure that we created.

Because what we're really looking for with this small team at Horizons is just a platform to do the kind of organizing work that we want to without having to do all the management stuff back office, human resources, financial management, grants management, having a legal team. So it's really nice to be sharing that type of resources with a platform, with a lot of other organizations.

So it's economies of scale when groups come together under a fiscal sponsor.

So when I say that it's a new brand, but with a very old idea of connective tissue amongst different actors to find each other in a very complex system of social change, that's really interesting.

Bill Cleveland: 00:04:25

And you've also made the point that.

What is happening here in the US is not unique. Could you talk about what your international experience has taught you that is relevant to our situation?

Julia Roig: 00:04:39

What I saw over and over again in my international work, it wasn't about more money, it wasn't about a new silver bullet idea to solve the problems that we were trying to work towards. And it was better connections with folks who were siloed.

And so the genesis of Horizons was to break down the silos specifically with a couple of different sectors.

Those who are working on social justice, more of a rights based frame for working on social change here in the US it might be like the human rights field internationally. Those who are taking more of a dialogue polarization framework, more of a peace building frame internationally.

And those who are technocratic solutionists, they have like institutional reform in mind.

They think we want to make democracy work through ranked choice voting or citizen assemblies, or all of the ways that we're going to tinker around the institutions and each of those audiences, sectors, they all have 20 million offshoots of them, but they're very siloed.

And so Horizons was meant to try and bring folks together, not necessarily to find unity of analysis or even shared analysis, but to at least see each other as a part of a movement of movements.

Bill Cleveland: 00:06:04

So the vexing question I think that we're all facing is, as you say, there's this amazing variety, diversity of organizations, people, perspectives, theories of change, et cetera, in a society that really does push us into those silos.

We are structured in a way in the nonprofit world, in the special interest world, in ways that mitigate against finding common ground and understanding the difference between all being on the same page and finding common ground. So my question to you, and I know there's no magic sauce, but what is the core strategy for centering the commons over the difference?

Julia Roig: 00:06:58

Well, I may even frame it slightly differently, Bill, because it's okay to be different. I know what you're saying.

I know you're saying to center the commons, and yet the way to get to centering the commons somehow flattens the complexity of the different opinions, the tensions, the conflict that will be in the Commons.

And so somehow we are centering a way of human beings making decisions together, a way of us wanting to birth a new future, because our current way of life is basically crumbling around us in lots of meaningful ways, whether it's the ecology or the way our politics work or our social infrastructure. And so you asked what it looks like in practice, and I don't mean to be facetious when I give you this answer, but I actually really believe this.

I think that there's a way of modeling the way that you want change to be seen. So if you are in the sector in any way, you've got to be the change you want to see in the world. I mean, that is literally a truism.

But the other is, I had a really wise mentor help me when we first founded Horizons, and we talked about wanting to be the connective tissue. His name is John Paul Lederach, and he's a really famous peace builder. Right. You probably know of him. And he loves his insect metaphors.

He's always talking about different insects. In this case, it was a spider.

And so if I, if my title is Chief Network Weaver, and I have this audacious goal that I'm going to be weaving among sectors, what does weaving look like? Does it mean that I am convening, I am bringing people to me, I am facilitating a space? Well, now you just participate in a space that I convene.

So it's funny to be sharing this with you now, but to get to the place where I could be a convener, what the weaving work looks like is I go and am in other people's spaces all the time, and I am seeing what they're talking about, what they need, what they're excited about, where there's energy, where I find energy, where you click or where you don't. So you're like a little spider. You're in this group with this network having this conversation.

And then you go over here and you talk to these other people and you hear what they're talking about.

Maybe you plant a little seed of knowledge, you ask a provocative question, you share something that you learned from the other group, and then you're going off and you're hearing what the next group says.

And of course, the web is what is trailing behind you, that sometimes you don't even realize the connective tissue is happening, but it's because you're moving through space in a different way. And of course, they talk about closing triangles, right? So I meet someone in one place, I meet someone in another place.

I the third member of the triangle, I need to close it by introducing them so that they know each other, but they didn't know each other before. So these are just the practices of weaving work.

And when you're being authentic and not transactional, so that you really are trying to listen with an open mind and open heart about where people are and what they're focusing on and what they need, and you're trying to provide value by being a part of their community or their network, their coalition, but then eventually following your own energy of where you see, well, where are there sparks? And that was the advice about how horizons should operate.

And if you show up with that authenticity enough with enough places and enough people with giving value, when you call for saying, like, I think it might be time to come together in new ways, folks will answer the call.

Bill Cleveland: 00:10:42

Part two, Sense making. That spider web weaving description reminds me of the continuously layered learning I always encounter when I work with other artists.

Most of the people that I work with apply the creative process to community building, coalition building, teaching, learning, sharing ideas, and of course, art making. And one of the core practices is one that is, gee, it's probably about 10,000 years old. It's that artists learn by doing, practicing, and embodying what they see and hear from their mentors and colleagues.

So an apprentice is somebody who looks over the shoulder of somebody who's a little further down the road and watches what they do. And a lot of people think, well, it's just about learning technique by just watching and mimicking.

No, it's about learning how to trust someone else with your attention and focus and then trusting that what you have received from them will make sense for you, which is not an easy thing in adulthood.

Julia Roig: 00:12:04

You know, part of it is we're not trained that way. I think our formal education system doesn't train us for that.

But I also think the professional incentives you mentioned that there are structural reasons why we don't collaborate, why we don't break down these silos there's also structural reasons why we're not in that type of deep listening mode and learning mode. And then I would also say to build trust enough to then grapple with each other with uncomfortable questions to.

Because that's where you eventually want to get to, right Is the provocations that we all need. Because I think that in this moment of such.

Some people hate this word, but I like the word because I think it is resonant, like such complexity and all of the uncertainty that we're facing. What we really have to be doing is sense making together.

We've got to be in these different relationships so that we can figure out what's going on and how to move forward. And the only way we do that is through this type of sense making process which requires the deep relational space to do the sense making.

Bill Cleveland: 00:13:13

And the interesting thing is the idea of the senses. We center the brain often in the sense making world. And yesterday we were in a group where there was one person was a dancer, an embodied learner.

And her sense making is a hybrid.

It's what she's thinking, but it's also what she's learning from her relationship with her body and other bodies in space, trying to tell a story, which is an amazing faculty.

And you know, a lot of people ask art and social change art and making sense, art and problem solving, what's that all about? Well, they're actually born together in the human genome. Art making is our gift.

It's where our multi sensory sense intensive imaginations and our brain power come together and they belong together. And one of our big problems is that they've been separated in the modern world.

Julia Roig: 00:14:19

I mean a lot of this, what this requires of us, Bill, is vulnerability. And this is another thing as adults where you lose the playful muscle.

And to be playful, to be engaged with different senses means to, to somehow take off your I know everything professional hat and to be different. And I'm really appreciating being with people and in spaces that, that will go down a path of different senses.

With me, even though you feel slightly vulnerable because I'm asking you to do a skit around the conversation that you just had as opposed to just a simple readout of the five bullet points. But we've gotta, we've gotta push ourselves into those ways of being and doing and knowing. I'm, I'm committed to it.

Bill Cleveland: 00:15:07

So to turn the page into a darker shade, what do you see as the scope of the current challenge that we face in this authoritarian trending world?

Julia Roig: 00:15:21

Somehow you can either take great comfort or be that much more overwhelmed by the fact that this is a global trend.

So it's not just the United States is so royally screwed up that we have this resurgence of an authoritarian faction in our country that's deeply rooted in our history and how we have our own context and in the US and yet human beings around the world are searching for something different in their political life and they are turning towards strongman politics, extremist, exclusionary views. And so why is this happening? Like, honestly, there's like a.

There's just like a humanity scale reflection about this that isn't just about our own political life and this political moment. And I actually take comfort in that. And so I have a read.

I don't mean to get too philosophical, but I just, I do think that we're in one of these moments of like a great turning that humanity is facing. And I'm not the only one with this view.

But that means then that if we think that there's a new way that humans are going to relate to each other in the planet and our sense of who we are and how we interrelate at the scale of enlightenment, when there was a shift in how humans thought, we are going through such traumatic, violent, difficult times right now because we are birthing a new way of being. And so then I think I want to be a part of birthing the new thing. And so it's almost beyond our political system right now.

And that grounds me now I'm going to fight like hell within the organizing spaces that we have. But what ultimately grounds me is the feeling of this, of helping to birth a new way that human beings are going to be and interact.

And I think it's going to be better and beautiful and it's up to us, but it's very painful to get through.

Bill Cleveland: 00:17:48

Well, one of the things you just did, which was you said we're on a journey that is going someplace. Right. We're not in the middle of the road trying to keep the hordes from just passing this checkpoint in the road. Right.

Which is a very different orientation. And it's the most important thing we need to do is get clear about why are we here, why are we doing this, why are we even arguing what's at stake.

And even though it's simplistic, I think those authoritarian forces actually are clear about what's at stake for them. And if anybody's going to be making sense and meaning in a way that is more bridging and birthing, that's going to be one of the great struggles.

It's the story struggle, the narrative struggle. Why so you speak of birthing. Is birthing the same now as it was when the Enlightenment occurred?

Julia Roig: 00:18:49

No, at all.

And I think that's part of the reason that we're struggling as much as we are, is because the pace of change, the way that our lives and the information that we process, the way that we're making meaning of the world is, is totally overwhelming to our brains. And so this is why we're clinging to certainty and simple stories as much as we are.

Because I think that the level of, of pace of change, it hurts, it hurts your brain. You want those simple stories to have surety and that's a much safer place to be in.

And so, you know, to break open wide for all of the things that you can't possibly know. And yet somehow we're aware of them because of these information systems that we have now.

I think this is part of the birthing is that, you know, we have at our fingertips anything we want to know about anything.

And yet we crave a simple story so deeply of right and wrong and who's in and who's out and good and bad that I think part of the birthing process is just like literally our capacity to deal with the level of information and complexity and relationality that we have to each other that really is there. That a, a author in the New Yorker wrote recently where she says, my brain is broken. I've just literally, I broke my brain.

And the description of that is like, it's too much, it's too much. I can't function right now.

Bill Cleveland: 00:20:33

Absolutely. Yeah. I think that was my brain finally broke by Gia Tolentino at the New Yorker.

Julia Roig: 00:20:42

Yeah, and so that's what I think we're facing. You know, I have, I have a 23 year old daughter, I have a 21 year old son.

I think that they are going to be a part of birthing the future in the way that they're technological natives and I am not, you know, in my 55 year old self. So I don't know that I'm going to be. I know that it's coming. I just don't know that I'm going to be a part of the birthing process.

Nieces and nephews that are gen alpha, you know, so my 14 year old niece is really gonna of birthing this new future and it's not like, oh, it's up to the youth to save us, but it's, it's the digital natives that are gonna be incorporating this level of knowledge and information and connectivity in new ways that I don't even think we know exist yet.

Bill Cleveland: 00:21:32

Yeah, they'll transcend the bright shiny object version version of the digital world and just say, whoa, this is broken. It's too damn hot. It's broken. What tools do I have to change this?

Part 3 Creative Horizons so Horizons is in the middle of all this. A lot of what you're talking about is the stuff of your work every day.

So if I could ask specifically what kinds of things are Horizon and your partners doing to build the bridges, make the translations to meet the challenges that we're describing here?

Julia Roig: 00:22:13

Yeah, twofold. I mean, the weaving work that I described is central to everything that we do.

And you know, so that means that we're accompanying a lot of different groups and what they're doing in order to be sense making together.

But then what we're the most focused on is this big tent, broad front organizing structures, new infrastructure that needs to be built across sectors, what we call pillars of society.

So that the groups that aren't just the NGO nonprofit industrial complex, even though a lot of folks are, let's say, organized within civil society, but the groups that have deep constituencies all over the country, like faith groups and groups of veterans, you know, professional association, like the bar association and other organizers, business groups, we need to find each other.

And we need to find each other in a way that we appreciate each other's distinct constituencies, needs the way that narratives unfold in each of those communities. And we need to eventually find overlapping strategies of what we're going to be working on together.

And so there is a lot of excellent academic work and case studies on the fight against tyranny from around the world. And we will invent lots of new ways because we're in a modern world now.

Like we've been talking about youth energy, but you know, really standing up to tyranny does look like building spaces for courage, building spaces where people take care of each other, mutual aid, where we're helping build bridges with people who think differently from us, inviting them into this democratic shared future. And so we spend a lot of time building those kind of connections with folks to both find each other and then strategize about collective action.

And then we're very interested in the infrastructure in the country around training and facilitation and coaching so that we can accompany people on this journey, not just us, but that there is, that's it. There's actual research that says pro democracy movements or successful movements to fight against tyranny.

One of the best ways of supporting them is with educational efforts, trainings, and accompaniment. And so those are the two areas that we're the most focused on right now.

Bill Cleveland: 00:24:54

And I'm correct in that a commitment to nonviolence undergirds all of this. Right.

Julia Roig: 00:25:00

And yes, it's nonviolent action, nonviolent discipline. We've got to figure out how to do this shift in the country nonviolently in the face of repression and political violence.

And a lot of it, for me, is also narrative competencies.

Where are the narrative shifts that we're looking for and when and how are our current narrative strategies having a boomerang effect that we didn't realize were actually hardening the very narratives that we want to be somehow shifting towards beloved community? And it's. We're having the exact opposite effect.

And some of that is because of what the communications and the storytelling that we're putting out into the world that are just some deeply entrenched, toxic narratives that I don't even realize. So I spend a lot of time on narrative competency. I mean, I'm calling them competencies, but that sounds fancy. I just.

I do a lot of narrative engagement workshops with different groups.

Bill Cleveland: 00:26:01

Well, and that's the core of an awful lot of movement work from the civil rights movement on long before the academic work at Highlander and at sncc.

And so much of that connective tissue was a combination of deep strategic thinking and a religious belief in nonviolence as a way of life, not as a political movement. And on top of that, despite the. Patriarchal hierarchies that emerged, real belief that.

A few people are not going to manifest the change and that the stories that are going to make a difference are going to come most often from surprising places and rise up organically. And the real question is, how do you harvest all that in a way that's meaningful and connective?

So the reason I'm having a conversation with you is because you and your work have a commitment and an understanding that cultural work and movement work are intrinsically connected. That they are. They're not separate sectors. They're actually joined at the hip.

And you've taken concrete steps to bring the cultural community into the work that you're doing. And so I think I have an idea why that is, but our listeners probably don't.

So why, given your background, where's that sense and understanding come from?

Julia Roig: 00:27:39

So I guess I just deeply believe that part of what's going to propel us forward are the actions, the relationships, the experiences that somehow are like tilling the psychological soil in a new way.

And so if we're going to be together in different, deeper, trusting relationships to move together, we can't do that with the hardened psychological soil that we bring to the work.

And I know that the way to till and soften the soil is through arts and culture and a different embodied experience, whether it's through dance or music or theater.

So I'm just deeply committed and there's aspects of my life that are artistic and I love being in relationship with folks, and that's been a part of my work from the very beginning as somebody who was in the international peacebuilding world, that we always used arts and culture as a part of our peacebuilding interventions.

Bill Cleveland: 00:28:51

Here's some Serbian resistance music from a band called Iburn. Hold your ears. They are singing. There is no place in this town. For one of us. The street is empty, but they are watching from the window.

Julia Roig: 00:29:27

So it also, it also sparks new thinking. That's what. And so I mean psychological soil. What I mean by that is we're gonna.

We're gonna be softened to find each other across difference, but we're also gonna have new ways of thinking and about what's possible. And I think that's key. It's key. And I agree with what you said.

We don't know where the spark is gonna come from, but we're gonna have to be ready for it when that new leadership and the new opportunities and we just can't keep doing the same thing, just louder and with more people doing the same thing.

And I think it's by building those relations both within the sector as we see that there's just, I mean, of course there's huge, big traditions, networks, they're regional there, types of mediums and arts that have been coming together and doing this work, but very siloed with the kind of technocratic democracy and activist world. And so this is some of the connective tissue I'm really committed to building.

Bill Cleveland: 00:30:28

So, yeah, what I hear you saying is that these things are intrinsically connected. You can't separate them. And if you do, you've broken whatever power you think you're wielding. You've undermined it.

In my reading of the literature on anti authoritarian work, often the cultural part, it's in there, but it's not identified as clearly. You know, people talk about mass movements like in Serbia, where I spent time in the run up to Milosevic's departure, and the arts community was.

I mean, there were so Many theater directors in those mass demonstrations in the squares who were basically doing theatrical organizing in a way to give people courage and tell the story and change the. Narrative and do it in ways that. Transcended the thuggery and were both humorous and powerful.

And that's one of the other things. Joy and humor and as you say, serious playfulness are essential to this kind of work.

And one of the ways to crack the tyranny of fear and intimidation is to bring the tricksters to the front line. You know, the tricksters and the choir who reveal the seventh grade absurdity of the despots with a good farce and a song of solidarity and joy.

Julia Roig: 00:31:55

Right. So I didn't know that we had Serbia in common. I lived there for two years at.

But yeah, post Milosevic, but right during the time that Kosovo declared independence. So it was a tricky time to be there. And yes, helped to establish a non for profit there doing work partner Serbia. And our.

Some of our closest colleagues come out of that outpour movement even now. And when the current administration started its second term, I had a Serbian colleague say to me, get ready for some really great avant garde art.

Yeah.

Bill Cleveland: 00:32:33

Art that gives us new ways to reveal the authoritarian slide and new ways to understand what the hell's going on. You know, Ezra Klein had a conversation on his show the other day, day that asks the question, how do you. Know where you are in the authoritarian.

Journey, how close you are to a. Positive pushback, a breakthrough or a moment of danger?

And I think this is one of the really important parts of the work that you're doing is which is really. Building a diverse coalition that brings, you know, different wisdom and perspectives to the table to compare notes.

Julia Roig: 00:33:17

That's right.

Bill Cleveland: 00:33:17

And learn from each other. And the more lookouts you have, the more you can see where you are.

And so people reporting back in different ways around different circumstances, in different places makes it more likely that you'll see the whole elephant, which is also part of what we're trying to do on this show.

So I just have a question for you. It's something that's been increasingly worrying to me.

I've just always thought that the soft side in movement work as their relationship to the 501C3 world you mentioned. As you're aware, in Serbia, this kind of thing happened all the time.

Julia Roig: 00:33:58

Well, it's happening all over the world now.

And there's a law in front of Congress right now in the name of security, in the name of anti terrorism, essentially get the freedom to designate any organization as A terrorist organization, and you take away their registration and their ability to accept funds and. And that's the authoritarian playbook around the world.

There were many countries that I had to figure out how to get money to after folks had their registrations canceled by a tyrannical government that just doesn't like dissent. It's civil society and NGOs. I mean, there's a problem. The NGO ification of movement space.

Bill Cleveland: 00:34:45

I agree.

Julia Roig: 00:34:46

So that is. That is a challenge. The revolution will not be televised or the revolution will not be well funded by philanthropy, truly.

And yet the way that civil society is organized is an expression of citizens caring in its purest form. Right.

So volunteer organizations, groups like Rotary, which is a little on the elitist side, but ymca, other form groups, people come together to organize within civic structures. And it's something we take for granted in our country. There's Serbia had to build a whole civil society sector.

So it's worth protecting and it's worth critiquing where and how it becomes a professionalized way of making social change. Sometimes I call it the social change industrial complex. I am a part of it, my friend.

I mean, I am in the sick system, trying my best to work in different ways, but I'm definitely not empire building. I don't need a huge organization of 30 people, five of us, almost six of us now at Horizons, and we will stay that small.

And if and when funders don't want to fund us anymore, we'll dissipate into the ecosystem to do our organizing work elsewhere. But it's still worth Protecting.

Bill Cleveland: 00:36:10

Part 4 Optimism Final question. What do you see that's giving you a sense of optimism that's out there now?

Julia Roig: 00:36:23

People are waking up to the need to be together in new ways. And you know, to a certain extent, these moments of just being shaken to our core helps us to transform. And I see that transformation happening.

I see people being willing to come together in new ways. It's not just business as usual, and it feels scary, but it also feels a bit exciting, actually, to find each other in these moments.

And deep, deep care work is happening. I'm in a city in D.C. that has been decimated by these cuts to the federal government. And so you know how many people have lost their jobs?

We are an industry town, and that industry as government. And I am seeing mutual aid networks pop up all over the place.

And we were on a call yesterday where we heard about the mutual aid within some of the artist industries and communities that like. And we are finding ways to help each Other. And so it's pushing us out of our isolation.

It's pushing us out of our kind of individual, kind of survivor mode. I hope the more we express our willingness to be together in those ways and help each other, I'm seeing, at least in D.C.

and I'm seeing the shift in the ecosystem that I swim in, which is a willingness to be together in new ways, to share information, to. To be generous of spirit. And yet also the stress response is kicking in.

So everybody's a little frazzled, but you also give each other grace when you know people are as frazzled as you are. I am hopeful. This is because it's a disruption.

What we're experiencing right now is deep disruption, which then really does birth the transformation that we need.

Bill Cleveland: 00:38:16

Yep.

Yeah, I guess you could say in a strange way, the administration has put their foot on the gas pedal, pushing the pickup truck of state closer to the brink.

Julia Roig: 00:38:30

Yeah, well, unfortunately, we still have some people with their heads in the sand.

Bill Cleveland: 00:38:35

I agree, but that's certainly not what you're up to. So, really, thank you so much for sharing your strategies and perspectives from outside the arts bubble.

Julia Roig: 00:38:47

Thank you for including me, my friend.

Bill Cleveland: 00:38:48

So take it easy, all right? I have to say, that conversation was both enlightening and refreshing.

I particularly like that we were able to talk about the rough road we're on in a way that included both spiders and broken brains more seriously.

And whether it's sharing stories or just showing up in someone else's space with an open heart, I think Julia offered a humanizing take on what it really means to organize for democracy in these chaotic times.

I particularly appreciated her take on network weaving, which isn't about dragging people into your own circle, but rather showing up in theirs and spinning a web across conversations and sectors and communities. I also thought that her embrace of complexity was particularly important. I think the impulse to flatten difference. Is a mistake and that making space.

For the tension and messiness and richness of the commons can often help us break out of silos and into transformative collaboration.

And as you can imagine, I really resonated with her conviction that cultural work isn't just a decorative aspect of the movement, that it is, in fact, the soil in which it grows. That our songs and images and stories aren't luxuries, they're tools of resistance, resilience. And, of course, reimagination.

So that's it for this week's show. Just a reminder that next week will be the inaugural episode of our show under its new banner, Art is Change.

Please know that it'll be the same weekly show with new artwork and a new theme song and that new name. So we hope you join us. Change the Story, Change the World is a production of the center for the Study of Art and Community.

Our theme and soundscapes spring forth from the head, heart and hands of the maestro Judy Munson. Our text editing is by Andre Nebe. Our effects come from freesound.org and our inspiration comes from the ever present spirit of UK235. So until next time, stay well, do. Good and spread the good word. And once again, please know that this episode has been 100% human.